切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

piglululu 发表于 2002-02-20 16:48:56
标签:

大家都把他视为神,我说听了他的勃拉姆斯no.4后远没觉得他比克莱博高明,后者给我的印象比之深多了,我一直以为是我没仔细听,但为什么同样听卡拉扬和克莱博后的感觉就比听他能留他更多回呢!?
所以大家都是媒体的看法作为标准而并没有真正理解音乐的奥妙。

卡拉扬就是好为什么大家都说不好呢?原因很简单,大家都笼罩在他的阴影下很久,他死后又要千方百计的摆脱他,消除他的影响,逃离他的阴影,所以都拼命说他差,从而可以得出以下结论:他家越骂他说明他在人们心中的根基就越深,越说他不好就说明他我们永远摆脱不了他的手掌。

monosolo小弟,看了此帖高兴不?

(编辑:piglululu 2002-Feb-20 16:49)

(编辑:piglululu 2002-Feb-20 16:51)

 
(修改于 2008-05-05 16:37:00)

 

评论

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

wangjoey 发表于 2002-02-20 17:55:35

别告诉我你在讨好MONOSOLO兄哦!

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RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

flute2000 发表于 2002-02-20 20:54:16

各个指挥都有各个指挥的好,他们都在不同的角度来看待作品,没有说谁是最好的。卡拉扬是我最喜欢的指挥。但是最近经常发现一有人说卡拉扬好(坏),就马上有人回帖说他不好(好),这样不是很无聊吗。
还不如多说些实在话,比如,CD里哪个部分特别引人注目等等······

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有无

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

zhushi1025 发表于 2002-02-20 21:21:23

相比之下,克莱勃的勃四速度比较快(尤其是四乐章),但你可以听一下卡拉扬的80年代的DGG合集,相信会有一些新的发现(我个人认为的:))。

勃四的伟大性,在与其对古典及浪漫音乐形式及配器的综合。第四乐章是很难挥好的,从曲式上说,他属于和声式的帕萨卡里亚--所有的音乐织体都不停的反复的围绕着作品开始的那几小节铜管和声,进行展开及发展(这是其遵循传统及古典音乐的一面)。说白了就是管弦乐队的织体变奏曲。从配器上说,他经常使用铜管和木管功能和声旋律化,对位化处理的手法配器(这是其运用浪漫派音乐的一面)。

相比之下,卡拉扬晚年在处理这种既需要连贯(帕萨卡里亚最忌讳的就是处理得散),又需要在段落之间有空隙的作品(比如勃拉姆斯的《海顿主题变奏曲》)都是比较不错的(他的80年代挥的这首《海顿主题变奏曲》,是很成功的)。

当然我不是说克莱勃的勃四不好,但相对于卡拉扬80年代的勃四,是两种指挥风格及概念的不同。克莱勃的指挥勃四更多的是点(既准确的第一拍),所以DG最早的那一版听上去音响比较干静(反倒是经过4D处理的味道不对了)。而卡拉扬的的指挥勃四更多的是线(既下手后,后半拍乐队才响,所以经常需要先打一整拍),所以音响听起来比较雄浑,厚实(当然柏林爱乐乐团的声音也是个原因)。当然这两种手法都有优缺点,每一个指挥也不是只用,只会一种。一般来说指挥都是点线结合的,比如卡拉扬在挥拉威尔《达夫尼与克罗埃》第二组曲的最后一段时,3/4与2/4的固定交错,使他不得不狂“打点”(有70年代LD及80年代DVD为证)以及80年代维也纳爱乐版的柴四4乐章(DVD)开始也是如此。

但是线多了也是不好的,比如贝多芬第一交响曲的开始,那几声拨弦
由于福特文革勒全是线,所以拨弦没有一次是齐的。所以指挥的手法也还是千变万化的,没有一种说是完美的,能够解决所有乐队问题的指挥法,还是得需要指挥随机应变的处理曲子。

阿,不好意思又说了一大堆废话:)

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zhushi1025

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

bruce1906 发表于 2002-02-20 21:37:58

首先声明我是celi迷。
但客观的讲celi并不是十项全能,不像某些人吹的那样什么都好。从我听过的celi唱片来看,他最擅长指挥那些庄严宏大、深沉内省的作品,如勃拉姆斯、布鲁克纳;但对于那些外向、活泼的作品就不是那么尽如人意,比方说将近40分钟的贝二(不带反复)。
piglululu所提到的celi的勃拉姆斯第四是我目前最喜欢的版本(尚无缘听到furt、walter等的演绎)。克莱博的指挥勃四象指挥一首维也纳圆舞曲,远不及celi的指挥给我的震撼。

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1906年的老妖怪Bruce

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

Thorsten 发表于 2002-02-20 23:10:46

如果他们是在称赞斯图加特的话,我实在没话说了

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Thorsten

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

Sachs 发表于 2002-02-21 10:28:35

转贴一篇关于斯图加特版的评论:
Most performances conducted by Sergiu Celibidache (or Celi as he was popularly known) harbour at least one incomparable ’Celi moment’, and this set includes plenty. In fact, were I to reproduce the reams of notes that I scribbled while listening to these remarkable recordings, I would probably monopolize at least four pages of this month’s issue. The man was undoubtedly a phenomenon: he could galvanize, mesmerize, enrapture and insinuate even the most bizarre interpretative ideas into your consciousness. As a musical magician, he was peerless; but as an exponent of the Classics, he constantly courted controversy. He abandoned the recording studio soon after the war, and it is only thanks to his son and family that the flood of pirate Celi CDs can at last be challenged by superior authorized alternatives.
Celibidache’s Brahms has been an occasional presence on the ’unofficial’ LP/CD scene for years, but this particular set is better played and better produced (bar one or two audible edits) than anything that preceded it. Firstly, the recorded balance is excellent. Textures are transparent (the woodwinds especially), instrumental perspectives are unusually true and the incredible force of fully scored passages ?such as the organ-like sonority that launches the First Symphony’s sustained opening ?is never compromised. The main body of the First Symphony’s opening Allegro is buoyant and light in texture, except for the clarinet/horn duet at 5’17"" (and again at 10’37"" into the recapitulation), where Celi slowly ?and somewhat unexpectedly ?applies the brakes. The build-up to the development’s great central plateau (from 8’04"") is awe-inspiring, and although the coda is broad, it never drags.
The slow movement is something of a minor miracle. Each time I hear the flowering string lines from 2’01"" (not to mention the oboe/clarinet dialogue that succeeds them) the blood rushes to my head. It is another one of those moments, but there are more in store, notably in the finale, at 2’42"", where slowly interweaving violin desks achieve a perfect diminuendo. Another occurs around the famous horn episode, at 5’08"", where horns answer each other with incredible power (at 5’16"" you actually hear Celi give a prompting shout). The celebrated string melody is leisurely and serene, but the tempo soon picks up and the rest of the movement is pure joy. All in all, this must now be counted among the most imposing Brahms Firsts currently available.
Celi frequently alters Brahms’s written dynamics (invariably more to clarify than to pressurize) and yet his ability to follow the passage of a single instrumental line helps illuminate aspects of musical argument that others fail to notice. For example, near the beginning of the Second Symphony, where the strings take the lead, the horns remain much in evidence. Musical punctuation is another consideration. Celi marks a small (unauthorized) comma before the big staccato string figure at 3’07"", while the brass’s warm delivery at 5’48"" smooths the contours of Brahms’s most exposed (and in my view ugliest) symphonic brass writing. There is remarkable intensity to the cello line later on in the movement (especially in duet with the horn at 12’17"") and a gentle staccato to the woodwind line for the coda. The slow movement builds to an epic climax at 8’47"" where full winds and brass declaim above a slow-moving tide of first-violin semiquavers (another of those unforgettable moments), and the finale’s accelerating coda is immensely exciting. Indeed, the whole score enjoys an unusually cogent interpretation.
By contrast, parts of the Third Symphony sound decidedly odd. Immediately after the opening brass chords, Celibidache divides the principal string melody into a spurious ’question and answer’, alternating Brahms’s prescribed forte passionato with an unmarked mezzo-forte. Then, at 0’42"", he dips the level yet again. ’Fussy’, I thought, and the drop in tempo for the grazioso second subject confirms that impression. And yet there are some wonderful moments later on: the quieter episodes in the central development, the fire of the string playing in the recapitulation and the delicate balance of forces elsewhere. The Third’s principal ’Celi moment’ happens at 7’46"" into the second movement, at the point where the strings draw a broad expressive arch, played here with the greatest intensity and mesmerizing control. The finale receives a relatively straightforward reading, often at white heat and again with some first-rate string playing. But, viewed as a whole, this is not a Brahms Third to live with.
For the Fourth Symphony, in addition to the complete performance, we are treated to a full rehearsal of the opening Allegro non troppo where a fully ’fired-up’ Celi takes the greatest pains over matters of rhythm and articulation. The slow, sweet centre of the movement is addressed in almost mystical terms, far more effectively in concert than in the rehearsal. At the beginning of the second movement, Celi’s ear for balance benefits oboes and clarinets and there is another of those slow-burning string crescendos, from 3’04"". The glorious second subject (4’26"") could hardly have been more beautifully played, and yet when it returns later on (at 9’08""), supposedly ’expressive and a little louder’, the dynamic level is far too low. Both the third and fourth movements accommodate the conductor’s penchant for trance-like slow episodes, the third at 3’06"" (thus making the return of the giocoso element doubly effective), and the finale, for the slow sequence that starts with the flute variation (at 3’02""). Celi also inserts a quaint diminuendo prior to the finale’s first variation. Cumulatively, the Fourth Symphony is taut, intimate, transparent and rich in incident, and only sometimes deprived of the ’long’ view.
Remarkable, inspiring, exasperating ?Celibidache was all of these, and more. And if the overall approach was sometimes excessively interventionist, you learn so much from listening that eccentricities soon cease to register. These discs enshrine the work of a man who obviously loved every note of Brahms’s symphonies (although he omits all three first-movement repeats) and was not afraid to express that love in interpretative terms.

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Johannes

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

bruce1906 发表于 2002-02-22 12:49:38

谢谢!我的正是斯图加特版。:)

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1906年的老妖怪Bruce

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

airsy 发表于 2002-02-20 23:33:10

游人对卡拉洋眼红,坑能在追求另类

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air

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

BEETHOVEN1770 发表于 2002-02-20 23:42:47

依本人看,对celi的炒作是最可耻的,用大师生前最恨的事来纪念他,纯属发死人财。披着反商业化的更疯狂的商业化。

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佳伦

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

MARCOGUO 发表于 2002-02-21 16:11:50

可能CELI指挥MOZART就不那么合适,气质对不上。

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FATBULL

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

lvzhou 发表于 2002-03-28 16:21:35

mozart第40,celi的慕尼黑版很不错啊

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

piglululu 发表于 2002-02-22 12:51:03

对切得指挥上有炒作之险!

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piglululu

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

bruce1906 发表于 2002-02-22 16:18:35

同感,这样反而是对大师的不尊重。

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1906年的老妖怪Bruce

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

monosolo 发表于 2002-02-22 20:44:11

对他有何尊重可言?一个不懂得尊重别人的人是不值得尊重的,这是从小我受到的教育。

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monosolo

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

YHXCY-3 发表于 2002-03-12 18:20:04

DG为切兄出了套碟,RMB2300。

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地星

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

shurtz 发表于 2002-03-13 09:17:19

大家有没有看爱乐杂志上、科密绍尔对CELI的评价,他说他曾经认为
CELI是活着的大师中最伟大的,但他反对CELI将音乐拆成一份一份的
音乐应该是个整体,凡是CELI用过的乐团对于接任者来说都很难接手
没有CELI乐团就合不起来了。

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shurtz

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

BEETHOVEN1770 发表于 2002-03-13 10:32:33

斯图加特版的起奏无与伦比,但后来好像没怎么跟进。慕尼黑版的慢乐章不错。

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佳伦

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

hoytoma 发表于 2002-03-28 16:18:06

虽然他触及的范围很小,但是在他擅长的部分他真有那么好!

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hoy

RE: 切利比达克真有那么好吗?内还有对卡拉扬现象的看法

BEEBABRA 发表于 2002-04-18 13:58:32

那个姓切的不怎么样,刚听挺新奇,听多了就讨厌他了
还是回头听卡拉扬。
不要脸的柏林爱乐。

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何乐,伟大领袖
古典音乐

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